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Need help identifying plecos

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Post Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:14 pm
BlackIce006 Level 3 Member
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Posts: 87
Location: Shakopee
I have a standard brown male calico that has breed twice with a female albino long fin. I am getting pelcos that have a white strips on the end of some of the fins and they are really dark with small dots almost like starlight. I have a mix of both long and standard fins. Does anyone know what these would be called? How they should be named to sell?
Thanks in advance!
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. "Ralph Emerson"

Post Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:35 am
BlackIce006 Level 3 Member
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Posts: 87
Location: Shakopee
No ideas?
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. "Ralph Emerson"

Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:15 am
willie Level 8 Member
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Location: Minneapolis
Hard to go with that description. Can you post some pictures?

Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:05 pm
BlackIce006 Level 3 Member
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Posts: 87
Location: Shakopee
Yeah I will try and get to it tonight. Thanks
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. "Ralph Emerson"

Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:09 pm
Nzac User avatar
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Location: Andover
As far as naming to sell, I would call them calico / albino mutts. That way you are not misleading anyone about what they really are. Just my opinion
I have some scaley and a few not so scaley creatures living in glass houses full of water in the other room

Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:28 pm
BlackIce006 Level 3 Member
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Posts: 87
Location: Shakopee
Image
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. "Ralph Emerson"

Post Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:34 am
Passionfish Level 20 Member
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Posts: 12039
Location: apple valley, mn
Bet my bottom dollar this is a hybrid.
Even if they were a species, they are no longer true wild type but line bred or aquarium strain due to features such as long fins. Long fins, color changes that differ from wild type are the result of line breeding or hybridization.

Image suggests that way back in line of ancestors there was an Ancistrus or maybe two or three different Ancistrus. What the fish is today is not known and never will be known.
If this were my fish I would refer to it as Ancistrus type hybrid.
Like a complete unknown

Post Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:05 am
Narwhal72 Level 1 Member
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Posts: 20
I don't think the species is really what is being asked here. The OP identifies the parents as a short fin calico male and an albino long finned female bristlenose. Both of these are aquarium strain fish and could be hybrids or line bred varieties of Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus. Unfortunately the lineage of the common bristlenose is lost to time so they should all be considered aquarium strain fish.

I think what is being asked is what is the correct trade name for these fish.

In which case the trade name would be "long finned brown bristlenose" based on the picture.

The white tips to the fins and spots are typical in juveniles and will fade as the fish matures. I see only the faintest hint of calico pattern (most notably in the mid section just anterior to the dorsal fin there is a lighter patch). As the fish mature they may show more of the calico pattern.

Andy

Post Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:50 pm
Passionfish Level 20 Member
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Location: apple valley, mn
There are no standard trade names for hybrid/line bred plecos. Some of the organizations that promote line breeding such as discus, angels, guppies, etc do have standard trade names based on line breds that will throw fry that look like parents. However, if one were to take standard trade name angel and cross it with another standard trade name angel, the off spring would not have a standard trade name because offspring would not resemble either parent.

In regards to hobbyists creating fish at home, one can follow the pack and create a name like COLOR FINNAGE but that is a crap shoot at best. Unless breeder assures buyer that breeding COLOR X FINNAGE Y will throw COLOR X FINNAGE Y fry, then the name is meaningless. One can simply look at the fish and determine if the fish is interesting or beautiful or ugly, the name adds or takes away nothing.

A name is used to indicate ancestors whether the name is species, common or trade, when name is used the buyer has expectations as to what will happen when the fish is bred. When two fish with same name throw fry that look like neither parent, the buyer knows that someone slapped a name on a fish for convenience not because the name carried any meaning.
Like a complete unknown

Post Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:03 pm
Narwhal72 Level 1 Member
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Posts: 20
I don't mean any disrespect Passionfish, but I can name a half dozen trade names for bristlenose just off the top of my head. A trade name is simply a common name relative to a specific phenotype. It is not a scientific name nor is it based on any kind of genetic heritage. It is simply based on a physical appearance that conforms with what the hobbyist/retailer expects a fish with that name to exhibit. A trade name is exactly that "a name used in the trade". Although it can be, it does not have to be established by any hobbyist group but is only what is generally accepted by the trade (retailers/hobbyists).

Brown bristlenose
Albino bristlenose
Super Red bristlenose
Calico bristlenose
Green dragon bristlenose
Chocolate bristlenose.

You can add long fin or short fin to any of those as well.

Calico's can be both brown, albino, or super red as well. These are all well established trade names used by the industry/hobby.

To use your angelfish example: A black angel mated with a silver angel produces marbled angelfish offspring. Marbled Angelfish is a well established trade name that you can find in any store. No matter what strain the parents of a particular fish are going to be it is going to have some type of appearance that will allow it to be categorized into one of many trade names.

Whether further breeding of that fish produces fry of the same phenotype is irrelevant.

Andy

Post Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:06 pm
Narwhal72 Level 1 Member
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Posts: 20
I should add that the reason I would not call the fish in the picture a calico (even though one of the parents is a calico) is because it is not showing any of the calico pattern that one would expect.

Therefore it would not conform to the generally accepted standard of what a calico should look like. Which means it would be a brown bristlenose which it does conform to what one would generally expect.

Post Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:14 pm
Passionfish Level 20 Member
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Posts: 12039
Location: apple valley, mn
An honest discussion is not disrespectful to any party. No disrespect here, I enjoy the discussion and admit that I can be wrong or at least poorly informed on many topics.

My view is not one carved into hobby lore or one that a group of keepers has discussed and come to a consensus. It is just my view.
Let me present it again and then I will stop posting.

One keeper crosses two plecos and resulting fish has observable characteristics of calico pattern and long fins. Another keeper also has a pleco with same observable characteristics of calico pattern and long fins.
Fully agree that plecos are being sold under trade name of calico long fin pleco and many other names that reflect observable charateristics.

I disagree that these names have value or mean anything. Perform a google search for calico long finned pleco and look at images that come up under that search. Most of the images show a pleco that is calico and has long fins. But comparing these images to each other readily show that these plecos are in no way related to each other by any genetic bond (will agree that genetic relationships are not important to many if not most keepers of these plecos). What is important (or I suspect is important) is that because the plecos are so different in physical appearance (even though they all fit calico and long fin charateristic expressed) that use of this name has any meaning at all.

A specific example may illustrate my point.
Pleco keeper #1 tells her friends she is enjoying her calico long fins. Friends ask for images and she posts something like this:
Image
Some looking at this calico long finned pleco may enjoy seeing and others may not be impressed and others will link the image to the name in their brains.

Time passes and another discussion of calico long finned plecos come up some day some where else. The following image becomes part of discussion
Image

To those who have seen both images, one would realize that the name calico long finned has little value in referring to a fish because the physically characteristics that name arouse from are not equal or even close to a morphologic identity. Only by viewing the actual fish can one begin to understand what is under discussion. As the discussion proceeds there will be questions as to how to arrive at a specimen under discussion. The name calico long finned will provide little to no help in answering those questions.
It would be just as easy to say I keep an aquarium strain that is rather unique. This strain has a calico pattern with long fins vs stating I keep Calico long finned plecos as if that name meant something that should convey some idea of what I really keep.


It is not my intent to write or enforce any code for hobby. I could not even if I wanted to do that. My intent is for hobbyists to realize the value or lack of value from naming conventions.
Like a complete unknown

Post Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:34 am
Narwhal72 Level 1 Member
Level 1 Member

Posts: 20
You are right that it is all in the eye of the beholder. A low quality super red could look the same as an albino to one person and another would say it's a super red.

It all comes down to what phenotype the individual considers appropriate for the name.

But since there is an absence of an alternative, the industry/hobby is compelled to use and create trade names for phenotypes that differ from the "wild type" phenotype.

Since human beings enjoy tinkering with the genetics of other animals so much I don't see that as ever ending.

Andy


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